In this week's episode of the Affiliate Marketing Podcast, Lee-Ann spoke with Bux Syed about Innovation & Monetisation within the esports betting industry, giving some tips and recommendations to new affiliates.
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We will be adding new episodes as we continue our 3RD SEASON of the Affiliate Marketing Podcast which will be featuring guests who’ll be sharing insights on SEO, Social Media, Paid Advertising, Social Selling and so much more!
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In this week's episode of the Affiliate Marketing Podcast, Lee-Ann spoke with Bux Syed about Innovation & Monetisation within the esports betting industry, giving some tips and recommendations to new affiliates.
Listen to hear more about:
Rate, Review, & Subscribe on Apple Podcasts
“I love AffiliateINSIDER’s Affiliate Marketing Podcast.” <– If that sounds like you, please give us a 5 Star rating here! Taking the time to do that, helps us support more people in our community to access digital and affiliate marketing insights, expert lead learnings and allows us to share the latest online marketing tactics that help Affiliate programs and businesses to grow.
Click here, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with five stars, and select “Write a Review.” Also, if you haven’t done so already, subscribe to our weekly newsletter and never miss out on FREE insights and training.
We will be adding new episodes as we continue our 3RD SEASON of the Affiliate Marketing Podcast which will be featuring guests who’ll be sharing insights on SEO, Social Media, Paid Advertising, Social Selling and so much more!
Subscribe to our podcast HERE!
Hi, and welcome to the affiliate insider podcast with me, Leanne Johnston. This is a podcast for digital and affiliate marketers in the gaming industry. Listen up as I explore the latest digital and affiliate marketing trends and give you the inside the scoop on what's occurring in affiliate marketing. Join us as we explore affiliate strategies, host expert interviews with leading affiliate and tech entrepreneurs and discuss the latest affiliate and digital marketing trends. If you want to stay at the cutting edge of affiliate marketing, you're in the right place. Join me for this week's episode and let's get started.
Speaker 2:Hi guys, and welcome back to affiliate insiders affiliate marketing podcast. Today, we are going to be talking all about e-sports and it's an area that I've been following closely for about the past 18 months, and also recently spoke about in an IGP affiliate webinar a couple of weeks back. Um, and today I'm super excited because I'm inviting, um, backside from e-sports entertainment group onto the podcast with me today to talk a little bit about what's happening in the world of e-sports betting and how this industry is growing along with new digital trends. So hi box. Thanks very much for joining me today.
Speaker 3:Hi Leanne. Thanks from for, thanks for having me today.
Speaker 2:You're welcome. You're welcome, sir. Um, let's kick off with just talking about where the current state of the e-sports betting market is. Um, you know, post COVID 19, which obviously had a massive impact on sports betting affiliates who had been listening to this podcast. Um, and we saw quite a big trend of, uh, you know, focus moving from traditional sports betting into things like e-sports and fantasy. So let's start off with where you think that your sports industry is currently situated for affiliates that are listening to just get a sense of, you know, how they can enter into the space and what it looks like right now.
Speaker 3:Right? So from the e-sports, uh, bidding side of things, you know, um, we're still booming. Uh, there's various regions that, you know, e-sports is increasing in terms of e-sports betting side, like, you know, your lap time or Canada, um, uh, I guess, uh, you know, uh, some European countries as well. Um, but from the Latin side, you know, the increase in Brazil, um, Peru, Chile, uh, CFO for the last two years or so, he has increased in tremendous amount. And, um, that is a very big opportunity for, you know, affiliates. So even the bookkeepers to get into, um, and due to COVID, you know, a lot of our e-sports events were canceled, you know, land tournaments, but, uh, because e-sports is all digital and, you know, we can play online. It never stops show, you know, we stopped the main events and the big events with 20, 30, 40,000 people. But, uh, the viewership, uh, online hasn't decreased. In fact, it seems to have increased, uh, in viewership. Um, and we're talking about the city major titles here, you know, your, um, CS go, your legal legend and Dota two. And yeah, we were also getting, we recently got a new e-sports title called Valor and which is also creeping up to be, uh, you know, uh, increased in viewership.
Speaker 2:So in terms of, you know, new affiliates that are all not even near for like, sort of established affiliates that maybe want to transfer out of traditional betting and started looking at this marketplace, can you talk through a little bit, um, you know, how that would look like where an affiliate should maybe focus their efforts? Because I know it's a little bit fragmented, you know, you've got teams, you've got players, you've got, um, you know, the spectators that are watching all of this. Um, then you've got the odds providers, you know, how does this ecosystem currently work?
Speaker 3:So that's, I think as an affiliate, you want it, you want to try and acquire as much as much audience as possible in the three major titles in e-sports. And according to that, you'll obviously get the traffic that you need because you're providing them with new so late, you know, odds or, um, betting companies that they trust for you to place your bets on. So keep it simple. Um, I would look at the three major titles and create content, um, that your target audience would consume on daily basis. Um, we're looking at, you know, it could be your news, it could be roster changes. It could be the next big event, you know, th there's always something happening in e-sports and e-sports fans, or the audience would like to know what's going on, you know, with their favorite team or, you know, with their rival team or stuff like that,
Speaker 2:News and content lead, um, you know, kind of looking at that whole SEO space, content marketing space, um, very similar to how sports betting is, um, so that the kind of genre of how you would promote and build an engaged audience around the brand is a very similar, uh, crossover, which is probably why a lot of sports betting affiliates have naturally moved over. But what about like other affiliates, like poker affiliates or casino affiliates? I mean, is it still all about SEO or is it more about branding and influence that and building community and membership around like whatever your, your affiliate offering is going to be?
Speaker 3:Yes. Uh, and I mean, for, for e-sports audience, community is a big thing for us, the community push and building the community and engaging with the communities, uh, is a, is a natural, you know, um, thing for us, that's, that's how gamers are, and the community wants to get involved in certain product that, you know, their fellow gamers, uh, being involved in, if they appreciate what the product is doing or what the brand is, you know, D uh, doing within the industry then yes. I mean, definitely like building that community and engaging with them would be, um, ideal situation.
Speaker 2:And what about kind of content streaming and, and, um, you know, like video content, does that play a big role? Like it doesn't have casino, for example.
Speaker 3:So I've seen a recent surge when that recent, maybe a bit a year now for casino streamers, you know, casino, Shima coming in on Twitch and playing slots, uh, with their partner brands or products with e-sports, you know, it's a little bit tricky. Yes. It, I, I strongly do believe that there is space and, um, you know, being a streamer and promoting a betting brand, but I don't necessarily believe that we should be pushing down betting into our, to our audience. It needs to be a natural flow where you, you know, you might be, uh, watching a big CS, go tournament and say, Hey, look, I'm, I'm gonna, you know, try to place a few bets on my partner website and show you promoting the brand at the same time. Um, you know, you're, you're, you, you're just doing your normal day to day stream. You can't, I don't think you can go in, uh, as, uh, as a new streamer and just start promote bedding. Like it's just not going to work because the audience, first of all, bedding the bedding in the e-sports, you know, audience is already a little bit, uh, um, uh, how do I say it? Uh, yeah, dicey and, um, all they're gonna say is you're, you're, you're, you're a sellout, basically. That's the word we say, you're a sell out, you just taking the betting money. You're trying to get your audience to bet, and there's no really, you know, personality or content behind that streamer, unless, unless you are a big streamer, like, you know, shroud or Dr. Disrespect that has that, uh, respect and personality. If you bring up a bearing partner on board and just be natural with it, not pushed down bedding to your audience show that would work, but with casino is different. People are watching those casino streamer for a reason they're watching. I feel like, uh, you know, when you go to a casino, you stand behind someone to watch their slot game or, you know, watch their blackjack or whatever, but with e-sports, I mean, you placing bets, you know, no one's gonna really enjoy you placing bets. I mean, sure. It might be a bit of a thrill as part of the content by can't be a constant thing, like the casino streams, you know? Yeah.
Speaker 2:And what about creating like commentary? Cause I know there's, there's a lot of, uh, you know, e-sports and I w I wouldn't want to call them affiliates. I'd want to call them influencers who talk about products, talk about games, you know, sell skins, whatever it is that they're doing. Um, but they actually build audience students, I think cookie babies, one at one of the ones that comes to my mind. But what about those? I mean, are they, is that more like an influencer model where they're building their community and they're themselves are actually a brand, um, or is it still an opportunity for newer affiliates coming in to actually build a website that then takes, you know, from, from the kind of search rankings and, and, you know, news pieces, the content marketing side, and then flips it over into like a YouTube or a sweat, a Twitch, or is a completely different because the psychology of an eSports player or e-sports, um, you know, enthusiast is very different to that of a sports betting enthusiast, I think. And maybe we need to talk a little bit about the difference between, you know, what a sports better would want to see and do, and what an e-sports player would want to see and do, and how that correlation between the different betting types and psychologies works, because there's also a very big, important thing here, which is about, um, player, age, you know, like e-sports generally tends to have a younger age group and obviously affiliates want to be compliant. So how they're positioned and build their brand in the sports arena in terms of the betting side is incredibly important.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So from, you know, the influencer content YouTube perspective, um, I feel like they all kind of fall into its own category, uh, as it is. Um, uh, how do I, how do I explain this? So when it comes to a YouTuber, you know, we had this rise of gambling. YouTube was, uh, on, on YouTube, I think four, three or four years ago, they were all promoting skin betting websites. I mean, I don't really want to get into this because yeah. It was a, it was a dark era for us. Um, but, uh, due to that, due to the skin bearing issues that we've had in the past, um, it, it made it more difficult for bookkeepers or, you know, the actual regulated, licensed bookkeepers to kind of tackle, um, these YouTubers because they were getting paid ridiculous amounts by the skin bearing operators. Yeah. And, uh, we just, we, we couldn't match it in, first of all, at the same time, you know, their audience were really, really young. Um, yeah, yeah. You have to be compliant. Um, unregulated markets, he was an unregulated, it is still an unregulated market. It's actually illegal to place bets on skins, but yeah, let's not get into that cause it's a, it's a, it's a long history that I've been following. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So let's talk a little bit about that monetization mechanic, because, um, I think that's also where affiliates need to sort of get their head around. It's not going to be all about revenue share only all the time because the e-sports market does operate a little bit more like a paid media. You know, you pay your fixed fee for your placement and, you know, however, well your sponsorship, that's kind of how it works, but are you seeing that mechanic change? Are you, are you seeing how, uh, content providers or influencers or affiliates, whatever you want to call them, are you seeing them look at the more longterm? Uh,
Speaker 3:Yeah. So usually these content creators or influencers don't, don't like taking rev share or CPA deals, they want their fixed fee. Uh, and again, this has been a conversation or discussion that I've been having with a lot of content creators, um, that are big, you know, creating e-sports content. So certain game contents. And I understand why they don't want to take revenue share and CPA because it's possible that, you know, they don't get anything in return and for them promoting our brand, they should get something in return, but there always needs to be that middle ground to say, Hey, let's do an hybrid deal where we give you, you know, X amount of fixed fee and then X amount of CPA or X amount of CPA and revenue share. There's always room for discussion. Now that discussion or that deal will depend on who you are as an affiliate. And you know, how like the traffic that you're getting, uh, and from which countries are you, if you're getting, uh, you know, audiences, if your audience is mostly from CIS, you know, we cannot accept those users. So, um, we need to look at the demographics and the data to say, okay, well you getting, if the data looks good and according to that, we'll give you a fake deal and we'll just need to discuss, you know, if they're happy with that or not, but a lot of content creators that I've spoken to only one that fixed fee. Um, so, you know,
Speaker 2:My guess is that that fixed fee budget is limited, right? I mean, nobody has an, and no brand has an open wallet. They can just pay fixed fees all the time. So I think if, if, if this ecosystem is going to evolve and get as big as what the kind of affiliate model has, um, you know, over the last 10, 15 years, then it, these changes are going to need to happen. And more collaborative conversations around commercials are going to need to happen because otherwise they're just not gonna make any money because everybody's going to spend their money where with the big sites, like, you know, JLTV and all of the other bigger kind of commercial sites and the smaller affiliates aren't going to get any revenue. So the other thing is also that activation piece, because I think, you know, it's not just enough to have, you know, visible branding. It's also about how do we actually engage with the customer to educate them as well, because, you know, once you've qualified that the eyeballs that you're targeting is, you know, over the age of 18 and, you know, they have, uh, you know, an interest in a certain type of sport or whatever the case may be. Um, you know, qualifying veteran actually activating those customers over to, to bet with, you know, a regulated operator, um, is actually part of the affiliates job as well. So there's a, there's an expense and also a time lag between when they would be promoting you and when they'd actually be receiving that money. So there's an education piece that's currently happening in this space.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, I think, uh, the best way to look at it as what, what the gaps are in the current affiliates, uh, you know, e-sports affiliate, uh, scene or industry. Um, a lot of the guys like Katina, you know, they're, they're doing really well. I mean, they've got multiple e-sports, uh, affiliate website, but they're not only providing odds or, you know, or how do I say it, uh, uh, promotions. They're also adding, um, uh, content onto their website to attract those users to come and view those content while, you know, um, they can choose who, uh, which product they want to bet on. But I think as a new affiliate, you should, you shouldn't look at it in a way where, Hey, we w what we want to do is we want to try. And, um, uh, what we're going to do is we want to get e-sports operators to come in, you know, place banner ads on our website. I think it should look at it as how do we acquire, or how do we acquire the targeted audience to come onto our website? And the first step is to create content or, or create, uh, uh, uh, certain, uh, a tool or a feature that will allow users to come and use it all the time. They don't, they're not coming to your website to look at which bookkeeper I should bet on. Maybe they're using a match ticket. I mean, look, I mean, I'm giving ideas here, but there is no match tick, uh, for e-sports right now. I mean, we have Dora buff. We have track low. I mean, you know, we have certain big websites like H LTV, but, uh, I haven't seen an e-sports match ticker, uh, out there. You know, I think sports has multiple match tickets that are very famous. Um, but e-sports has its own, you know, Wikipedia is like, Liquipedia is they attract low or above? They have their own match tickers, but, you know, people go there to see data. They want to know the numbers, they want to know the numbers. Okay. How many times has this team lost against this team? What are the roster, you know, uh, is someone's subbing in for, for certain team, is someone sick or someone injured? Like we want to know, we want to make decision based on the data that, you know, we have in front of us, or any news, any piece of news. Um,
Speaker 2:I mean, this has taken us totally off topic, but I hope you don't mind me throwing this in here, but what about if we have so much, so many numbers that are available with all the odds and the, um, you know, replacements and everything else that's moving along, which is very similar to sports, has arbitrage betting started in the e-sports space? Yeah, definitely. Okay. Because that doesn't have a huge problem in the sports betting industry, you know, four, five years ago. So, you know, is there room for kind of arbitrage education on e-sports or something that, I mean, just cause we were talking about ideas now for new affiliates coming into the space, you know, the, the market as mature as what the sports betting market is. So thinking of that hook and how you're going to actually build your community, which is obviously an affiliates job. Um, you know, the other area that I think hasn't been explored since we're sharing ideas is, um, like VIP communities for e-sports betters that are, you know, that wants a concierge service or who wants to get access to, you know, special tournaments or backstage passes or, uh, you know, meet and greets with their favorite players. You know, I'm not seeing a lot of that kind of stuff, which is also audience engagement land. Um, so I think there's, there's still quite a lot, if you think very carefully about this marketplace, even though it is fragmented, if you really hone who you advertise, who your customer is and go the route that you're experienced in whether it's numbers, you know, community, um, you know, widgets or technical bolts, there's still quite a lot of opportunity in this space. And we're going to see, especially with the regions that you mentioned earlier, you know, Latin Canada, one of those countries, I think we're going to see traditional sports spending affiliates diversifying in order to actually get into that marketplace a little bit quicker. The other thing that an affiliate is obviously going to ask, and since we're talking about money at the moment is what is the lifetime of an e-sports better? And how does it, how does it compare to a Sportsbook player? Um, because obviously, you know, if they're gonna invest to go and look at a new channel, how, you know, what's, what's the return on that investment for an affiliate? I mean, my guess is that an e-sports player is probably just as lucrative as a sports book, but in your experience, what, what does that look like?
Speaker 3:Well, in my experience, uh, I would say that there are, you know, your normal, VIP's the whales that we talk about that can bring in the number that a normal sports, you know, player or sports VIP will bring in. Um, but I, I don't, I don't think it's the same amount as, you know, number of people number VIP's as a sport and generally, yeah, yeah, exactly. And generally the LTV on e-sports customer is slightly lower than, you know, sports, um, uh, average sports player. This also depends on which regions and so on. Um,
Speaker 2:And also, I mean, you can think about it, you've got the sponsorship side, but also the revenue share side. So it doesn't really matter what the lifetime value is, as long as you're building volume. And also if you're an existing sports betting for, you've got a diversification into e-sports betting, it's actually quite a good cross revenue model to reduce your risk of being all in one space. Um, which a lot of affiliates were when COVID 19 broke out and, and, you know, while we saw a surgeon, the numbers, so we've spoken a little bit about, um, you know, the monitorization aspects, we've spoken a little bit about pivoting and, and you know, what sort of angles are still currently open in the e-sports industry that happened been, uh, you know, over, over utilized to their say and this, and seems to be quite a lot of gaps there, but what are some of the best innovations that you're seeing in the affiliate space at the moment where sites are really engaging and upselling to convert, play as well in, you know, in, in this ecosystem that you live in every day?
Speaker 3:Um, so I'm not really saying too much innovation from the e-sports affiliate side of things. Um, I mean, I have seen some good like decent website, but I truly believe that there's more, that can be done. Um, but, uh, like you mentioned, a lot of these affiliates are coming in and, you know, they, they trying something new out, so they're putting their water, uh, you know, one foot in, but they're not really diving in because I mean, you got these big guys, like eight LTV, you got, you know, either entertainment, I mean, better collective just acquired or not just by about a year and a half ago, acquired HL TV. There's a reason why they acquired a product that already had, you know, the following the audience, the community, and all the features that, you know, a Sisco fan would need. Right. Um,
Speaker 2:I've never targeted them because they went for a certain e-sports that was highly popular and obviously had mass value, um, and then acquired a tactical acquisition to their portfolios. So, okay. That's quite interesting too, for affiliates. I think that might be listening because I think you need to pick your poison, pick your poison and go all in. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I mean, it's easy to just, you know, uh, get five or six bedding brands to put a ban on your website and write, uh, an article about certain stuff, but what are you really doing to engage with those users? That's on your website right now? Do you have, I mean, I'm gonna, you know, so basically once you use, uh, once a user is on your website, what does he do is he can eat if you only have banners or welcome offers, uh, and a couple of articles that use it is going to, you know, he's, he's not going to come back to your website because he's already done what he needed to, how do you retain those users to your website? Now there's various thing. I mean, a big thing for me is gamification. Like I would gamify my w if I was an affiliate, I would game, if I'm a website, not only with banners or, you know, articles, I will, I will give them an opportunity to, like, I will add on feature to predict, you know, certain games on their website. And then if you, if you get certain predictions, right, you partner with you partner with, uh, a betting operator to say, Hey, here's a five pound free bet coming, uh, you know, place it on our website. So then you're going see,
Speaker 2:Does the activation piece that needs to happen? It's not just about how in sports books, you can write your review and still get to the top of the rankings, the needs to be a user journey or UX journey that happens on the actual affiliate side and also keeps them there or keeps them coming back. So it's more about community, less about traffic, um, which is super invaluable information that you've shared with us today. So I hope that if there are affiliates listening there, they're taking tips, taking notes, because I think, you know, this is such an interesting market to get into, and there's still a huge opportunity to go and build really big brands, um, which could then, you know, get bought out if that's a short-term plan for affiliates listening. So just to round off this fantastic conversation that we've had, and I've really enjoyed having it with you today, do you think affiliate traditional affiliate marketing in the way that we understand it in the traditional gaming sense is going to play a bigger role in the e-sports industry, or is that day stock very much coming? That can't be, you see the market right now?
Speaker 3:Yeah. I still think, uh, it's very much coming and I'm, I mean, I've seen, you know, I've dealt with a lot of previous e-sports affiliates that, uh, uh, probably were alive for about six to eight months and never heard from them again after, you know, they've made some money, but I just don't feel like they give us enough feedback to say, Hey, I think the operators and the affiliates are not talking with each other. Um, I think there's a big missing gap over there. And due to the operators, not talking to an affiliate because, you know, possibly the offer might be not working or something is not working there. So communicate before you quit on, you know, uh, moving forward with your website, a lot of, uh, affiliate websites have gone dormant in the e-sports side and, you know, you can see it because they haven't updated in in years. And these are we talking about some, you know, decent size affiliates that brought in good, good amounts of users to my, you know, previous products that I've worked with. But, uh, yeah, now it seems like, you know, th they're not doing anything to fix that issue or to improve that conversion, um, from, uh, landing on affiliate page to, you know, depositing, um, onto the, once the website.
Speaker 2:I think the core message there is that, you know, you've got to get into this market for the long haul because you're getting in super early right now. So, and even if you've been there for 18 months and it's just been ticking along your URL is building, um, you know, domain authority, you are, you know, understanding how the market is going to work. The market is constantly changing all the time. So I guess the message here that that'd, we want to give to a freelancer listening is that this isn't, you know, get in, get rich and exit quickly. This is like a three to five-year plan to figure out, you know, where you can add value to really understand the psyche of these customers, um, and then to provide products and solutions and innovations that are actually going to keep them coming back to your website. And if you think about that as part of your marketing strategy, before you jump in with your two feet, um, and dive a little bit deeper into the e-sports space, you know, just taking some of these points that you've shared with us today on board is probably really going to help, um, because it will save time and money, which is, you know, everybody's issue when they're starting out. So what final piece of advice would you give to, um, you know, new affiliates coming into the space or new affiliates that might be listening here, um, and are looking to build alternative revenue streams? What, what do they need to consider before entering this space, other than the fact that this is going to be a long-term game plan?
Speaker 3:I think be innovative, like think out of the box, you have to think out of the box because you know, the gaming community or the audience that we're targeting, these are millennials and these guys, we can't be stuck to the traditional affiliate thinking or traditional sports affiliate, uh, you know, um, direction. We need to change that direction and create something new. Um, and honestly there are a few, uh, you know, uh, affiliate, not affiliate website, but content website that are doing extremely well right now. And I think, you know, the, that anyone who wants to go into e-sports affiliates, I should look into that and find a way to integrate bidding aspects to it and build a community around that. Um, yeah, it's not as easy as, you know, come in and let's put up some banners and do some SEO show that might work in short term, but you need to, you need to build that community. And that, I mean, this is not only for affiliates. I think this is across all, is anyone that's in the e-sports industry? I mean, I think I'm giving away too much here, but like community community is really the key. And that is the reason why your brand, that is the reason why, or how you'll get the brand loyalty, uh, within our targeted audience. And yeah, like just, yeah, just think out of the box.
Speaker 2:So on that note, Frank going to 11 levy for this week's episode of the affiliate marketing podcasts by affiliate insider. And I'd love to thank you bucks for coming on board and sharing all of these nuggets of wisdom, which I'm sure people are going to take away and implement, and hopefully we'll get you back in, you know, another 12 months and see what's happened. And if any of your predictions have come true.
Speaker 3:Great. Thank you. Thank you, Leanne. Have a good day.
Speaker 2:This podcast is sponsored by one account. One account offers a free real-time age verification solution for affiliates and helps to ensure audience compliance in highly regulated markets. The process is super simple for players. The need to age, verify to access free to play games, and the tool integrates seamlessly into your existing affiliate site to find out more and get started with one account in your affiliate business, visit www.one account.net forward slash business. That's a wrap for this week's affiliate insider affiliate marketing podcast. If you've loved what we've been putting down in this podcast series, head on over to Apple iTunes and give us a five-star rating and subscribed to the podcast channel that way. You'll never miss another insightful episode cheated next week for more digital marketing insights and traffic driving trucks,
Speaker 1:[inaudible].